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Tina Kirfel, head of the agency Kiticon, took on responsibility in her career at just 32 years of age, but ran into reservations above all as an expectant mother in a leadership position in 2006.
fvw|TravelTalk: What was the decisive moment when you knew: I want to lead and take on responsibility?
Tina Kirfel: It simply happened that way, because from very early on I always liked to take the lead and walk out in front.
The travel industry is regarded as strongly female-dominated, but men still dominate at management level. How do you explain that?
It always takes both sides: women who want to lead, and men who allow it and value strong women. Time and again I experience that we women aren't even included in the shortlist for certain positions. And then it is unfortunately a fact that women have to prove themselves much more and are observed more critically than men. I think a lot of women simply don't feel like putting up with that.
"Time and again I experience that we women aren't even included in the shortlist for certain positions."
What obstacles or prejudices have you encountered as a woman on your career path?
There were quite a few. Especially when I had my first child in 2006, as a manager with a large team of 120 employees. From colleagues in the management circle I kept hearing the sentence: "You just go and have your child first …" What was meant was: after that you'll be a mother anyway and no longer a leader. That's how it was back then, and unfortunately it's still often the case today. Not that much has changed in the mindset.
How did you deal with that?
I tried never to let myself be diverted from my path, even though in the beginning I often had inner doubts and felt insecure. It's good to listen to your gut feeling and your intuition and not let yourself be thrown off. It also takes a fair amount of courage and intrinsic motivation.
"I tried never to let myself be diverted from my path, even though in the beginning I felt insecure."
What does leadership mean to you personally?
For me, leadership is a real passion. There is so much abuse of power and so much bad leadership. When weak people hold leadership positions and define themselves through their position, that is always difficult. As a leader, alongside competence you need a strong personality, empathy and vision. You have to be able to take criticism, listen to other opinions and cope with the fact that employees may be better than you in many areas of competence. For me, good leadership also means engaging in controversial discussions and motivating employees to develop their own strengths. Ultimately, leadership also means appreciation, respect and a great deal of responsibility — and always standing in front of your team like a lioness when facing the outside world. I find it hard to bear leaders who belittle their employees in front of others or hold them down.
"Leadership means a great deal of responsibility and always standing in front of your team like a lioness when facing the outside world."
What gives you the greatest pleasure in it?
I think it's wonderful to see how people grow, develop and take on responsibility. In the process you learn to let go yourself and to accept other people's decisions, even if you would have done it differently.
Was there ever a moment when you doubted your leadership role?
No, that never happened. I love leading, I have courage, and making others great is what inspires me. I'm proud of everyone I have made great, and of what outstanding leaders they are today. And when someone then says at an fvw round-table discussion, "I learned all of that from Tina," that's lovely and makes me very happy.
Who or what has shaped you along the way?
A role model for me was without doubt Johannes Zurnieden (founder and managing director of Phoenix Reisen, editor's note), with his entrepreneurial spirit and his always open door. Then my long-standing bosses at Transocean and Hapag-Lloyd Kreuzfahrten, Boudewijn Bezemer and Sebastian Ahrens. They always supported me and trusted me with everything. They also believed that I could have children and still remain a leader with the same drive. That was not usual back then. Certainly not in such a conservative company as Hapag-Lloyd.
"A role model for me was without doubt Johannes Zurnieden, with his entrepreneurial spirit and his always open door."
What concrete changes are needed to bring more women into decision-making positions?
Many people need far more flexibility in their thinking when it comes to filling leadership positions anew. Often women aren't even taken into the selection process, because somewhere in the back of people's minds is the thought: "She's going to have a child soon anyway." And if people still believe that no work gets done in the home office, or that women working part-time don't achieve enough, then it won't work. I know so many women with children who achieve more working part-time than many people do full-time. So what is needed is trust in women and in their competence. Women in leadership positions who have children are, moreover, a great asset. There is simply still far too much competence sitting at home because working models aren't flexible enough.
How do you promote young talent and diversity in your company?
I support everyone by continually motivating them to take on responsibility and to think entrepreneurially. My managers are also involved in the agency's cost and revenue structure. They understand our calculations, know the pain points and learn an incredible amount from it. We are always in close contact. When mistakes happen, we discuss them and we all learn from them.
How important is it that men are part of the discussion about female leadership?
I would think it important for us to talk together, but somehow I haven't experienced that yet. Either the women talk among themselves or the men do. I would like to be part of such gatherings in order to move things further forward.
What advice do you give to young women in the travel industry?
Don't let others make you insecure too quickly, and listen to your inner voice. If you are convinced of something, stand up for your position, even if others want to talk you out of it. Usually your first gut feeling doesn't deceive you. I have found that to be true again and again in hindsight. You have to be courageous if you want to achieve something.
"You have to be courageous if you want to achieve something."
Finally, looking ahead: what would be real progress for female leadership in tourism in five years' time?
If more women were brought into C-level positions in recruiting and could show what they are capable of.
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